Hello,

I posted here years ago and thought it would be a good place to ask about this. How do you feel about Achievements, and the fact that they are in just about every game now?

I think they do more harm than good for a few reasons. But I'd like to hear others' opinions first.

They don't bother me, and I don't bother them. However, it amazes me that more players don't see through them as being a cheap, paper-thin way to make players keep playing. You typically don't get anything besides a stamp to show off, and they usually don't involve anything realistic ("Get 30 pets? What does that have to do with being a fantasy barbarian? Or survive a fall from 100 feet?"). But I don't mind that they are in games. I just don't bother with them.

It ads something to the game for those that like to collect things.

In a Mmorpg i liked how Wow did there Achievements for raid content.
They basically added in hard mode and made players play harder to achieve them.

As for FPS i think almost all games now record your kills, deaths, and head shots, etc.
For some type of ladder system they have in place.

I believe in what ever type of game you play now you need the competed component
that your players and view and show off to there friends.
If not there going to play it for first few weeks and get bored and move to next game.

Even the new Star craft 2 game witch is a RTS has a neat Achievement system.

Achievements are used in a lot ways people don't realize.
Good example are forums. they have a level or ladder system base on your post count.
I seen a lot people happy just hitting the next level.

In a way i think its the nature of the game.
Back in NES days, you had people submitting screenshots of highscores,eta on beating a game, etc..
I know just about every older gamer on this forums had or look throw a Nintendo Power Mag before.

Just with today's games they made a system to show you your Achievements

jay

I just wish they would dedicate the time to making actual new content. A lot of Blizzard development effort was put into the Achievement system, and what do players get back for doing them? Nothing tangible on 99% of them. And some of them costs thousands of gold to complete. I guess I just can't understand the mentality of those doing old content over and over for achievements, or blowing all of their in-game money for a title. I like collecting things, but I want to collect tangible things.

My issue with achievements is that, in my eyes, they automatically create an unfair situation simply by existing there in the Achievements tab. By unfair I mean you can't win - whatever you do.

If you don't have Achievements, you can already be made fun of (called "noob") etc, for not having as many as others. If you want to "become pro" and get all the Achievements, you're being suckered in - you've gained nothing but bragging rights. Are more things to brag about really what games need? Leveling up and items in games are already virtual. Isn't it redundant that we, as a majority, actually desire "virtual, virtual" items too?



See, this is what the majority believes now, just because that's what the majority believes. But how addicting was Counter-Strike before Achievements even came out? What about MMOs before WoW? Players should be addicted to a game because the game is fun, not because they have no choice in the matter that the Achievements tab exists and 90% of them are incomplete, which gives the automatic impulse that you "should" complete them. You could argue that levels and collecting things are the same thing as Achievements, which, in ways, they very much are.



Here is how I see them as different. A player has no choice in the matter that the Achievement tab exists, whereas if he wants to collect other "tangible" game items, he can choose to or choose not to collect them. In other words, the Achievements tab being patched into a game, to me, is much like automatically patching "empty trophy racks" along the wall of your in-game house/apartment, and you have no choice in the matter. Fifty or more empty "trophy slots" along the wall, each with the name of a creature (getting tougher and tougher as it goes down the wall), and each, of course, devoid of that creature's trophy head. Are you gonna be a noob and leave them all empty? Noob! I have all 84 trophies!

Now - hear me out - if I can choose to or choose not to collect trophy heads of game monsters and put them on the wall of my house - that's perfectly acceptable. See, if dgnKnight tries to make fun of Shaeth for not having collected and trophies, and the empty trophy racks aren't imposed upon everyone automatically, Shaeth simply says, "Um, but I don't want to collect those." The Achievements tab creates automatic goals for everyone that the game "wants" all players to attempt, with no choice. The problem is, as already said, it's just another thing to brag to other players about, or make fun of other players for not having.

It seems that they, while maybe not the original purpose, take advantage of the fragile ego of the majority of gamers, and I do think the majority of gamers have fragile egos. If most people are made fun of for not having Achievements, that will make them want to "get even" and play more to get all of the Achievements. Maybe good for the game company getting some more playtime out of their players, but at what cost? Shouldn't we be designing games that the players enjoy simply for what they are?

Another issue is that some players go to extreme lengths to obtain Achievements, in the form of cheating. Would there still be cheating without Achievements? Sure, but there wouldn't be as much, because of the aforementioned ego issue. If not for ego, why else would someone enable cheats in games like Left 4 Dead, Killing Floor, to get virtual badges? In fact, I have seen players in Killing Floor servers alone. Alone! Killing Floor is a multiplayer co-op survival game. The reason I have seen people alone is that they can more easily farm for Achievements and XP alone. I know these games are not MMOs, but the behavior is not too far off for some. It just doesn't seem worth it. Most don't want to actually "earn" the badges, they just want to get it in the cheapest way possible, to show off, and/or, be immune to name-calling. Sigh... I just don't think they are healthy for the player base. In fact, I have seen players in Left 4 Dead be made fun of for acquiring an Achievement. Why? That doesn't make sense, right? Well, if "mfaris1994" just obtained "Dead Stop" Achievement in Left 4 Dead, it means he didn't already have it. LOL! mfaris1994 is a NOOB! I've seen that many times.



Should we be happy to get to the next level on a forum? This brings up a good point, although it's really the same thing as ego - Status. Shouldn't status be dictated by how you act now and not by how long you've been registered, post count, and popularity? In my eyes, a poster who would make a lot of "respectable" posts, and then acts like a complete jerk to a newbie poster he doesn't like (for no good reason) makes him - a jerk. But the fact that lots of people rated up his posts in the past still gives him the title of "Revered Poster Guru". I don't think the computer should calculate averages blah blah and the computer tells us how awesome we each are. Shouldn't that be for the players/posters to decide?

Disclaimer: I am not insulted if someone makes fun of me for not having Achievements, in fact, I find it very easy to turn it around and make fun of them for making fun of me for not having Achievements, for example, although usually I'll stay quiet. But I'm observing how most players speak to each other and react to this kind of thing.

Hopefully this was not viewed as flame. Although I feel like I have to hide now. I just know that for these reasons I would prefer to not impose the obligation of the Achievement tab on players (assuming I do make something), and would try to minimize "similar" things. I realize there will always be name-calling, ego, etc, in online games. But why throw gas on the fire?

Hmmm, that is actually a very good point, Release, and I never thought of it that way. I just always knew I didn't like Achievements lol. But yes, I remember people being teased (including myself) for not having achievements completed in WoW. It seems "noobish" to them that I have "not been able to complete any", even though I am trying not to complete any because I feel they are a waste of time. So besides my gear, my lack of healer skills, my low mana regen rate and the fact that I didn't know how to get to most high-level dungeons on my own, I could have also been made fun of due to my blank Achievements tab, even though that was the one thing I didn't care about and was not trying to work on!

Blah. They just don't seem right. Status > playing the game together for fun? Really.

I tried a co-op game called Alien Swarm for the first time the other day. Pretty cool game. Short, but it's also free. It's kind of like a top-down version of Left 4 Dead, but with aliens, and some other little neat features, like to open certain doors you need a hacker character class, to actually play a little hack minigame instead of just a progress bar. Game has achievements and levels, which I expected for a game like this. Didn't think I'd run into any annoyances, though, because there is no versus so, no angry competition right?


(I spelled achievements wrong ^-^)

This is a screenshot of the chat lobby after a team mate, about 80% into the mission, said, "FK YOU" and grenaded himself to death, to end the mission. Why? Well, I accidentally shot him once. But, it's only on Normal difficulty, and team damage is basically non-existent. One assault rifle shot (which is what it was), does about 2 hp damage to a teammate. If you are really about to die (which honestly, would be rare on Normal), you'd ask the medic to throw down a medkit. So what was the big deal? WELL! As you may have guessed by now... by me shooting him once on accident, I ruined his "Take-no-damage-during-the-entire-mission" Achievement. He, being our hacker tech, kills himself to forcibly end the mission. (Mission can't go on without the hacker on certain maps). Is the badge really that important.

I hope the side effects from achievements are taken into account when we all make awesome games for players to enjoy.

Achievements like "Take no damage", "Get through level in XX:XX time", and other such difficult tasks have no place in team-based multiplayer games. I can understand it in single-player campaigns, but in multiplayer, it is just setting up teams to be violently ripped apart by bickering from simple mistakes.

I have never played an MMo with achievements, but do like them as they add on replay value to many games. Bit like the Gnome in Half life Episode 2, annoying at times when you forget to save but quite fun. And the same for the left 4 dead 2 achievements. I have got nearly all of them except for the survive campaign on expert and such. I was not bothered about achievements in l4d but when I wanted to replay l4d2, I set on getting the achievements which made it all totally re-playable for me. Still have yet to get many of the l4d ones now

They do nop major harm, just as long as they do not buff players (really that would be perks I guess) and are significant to do. Like completing a game on ultra mega hard mode or doing something quite unique. And if they can not be cheated on. Valve games disable achievements for the duration of the games session after cheats are active and I don't think there are any hacks to further assist in most other things.


If a developer can fit them in, make them good, then put them in. A person can choose to complete them and just earn them-self a icon and maybe a top ranking list perhaps, and some people enjoy it some people don't, but some people enjoy rap and some don't.

A single-player game with Achievements make sense. The game has an ending point, and Achievements allow players to get more replay value from the game and to show off what they have accomplished in the single-player campaign.

However, in an MMO, there is no single-player campaign, so everything you do can be shown off to other players. Also, if players feel they have "finished the game" there is a problem with your MMO. The main content itself should offer nearly unlimited replay. So what do Achievements add?

Something I definitely agree with here is that IF *IF* they are in a game, they should do nothing other than a badge. Yes, earlier I said, and still think, that it's silly to work so hard for something that does nothing. However, it would in my eyes be even worse if that Achievement actually rewards them with something in the game. A better gun, a better armor... Now it's a status/ego object AND gives them an adavntage! Even if it is something that doesn't matter, like a hat your character wears. I don't want to see everyone wearing that hat to prove to others they have that achievement. Sacrifice players feeling immersed in the game world for that? No thanks!

But it's not that I simply don't prefer them (like a type of music), it's that in an online game which automatically involves other players - there is an aspect put in place which can separate the players from each other, and only get individual status as the trade-off. I agree that that is something more for a single player game.



I can't believe I forgot to mention this - this is another of my biggest problems. I had a talk with someone who is pro-achievements, pro-leveling, and like mentioned earlier, he even told me that he wants to be the best of the best, constantly. He's got a near capped character on Runescape (or so he tells me - I believe him), with something like every skill capped except for 2 levels... Or he was only 2 levels from the level cap... Something like that. I recently showed him Alien Swarm - he stayed up all night until he got to level 27 (maximum) the first night. Honestly it doesn't take that long, but still. When I asked him about Achievements/Levels in the game, his reply is that THOSE are what kept him playing. If those weren't there, he would've got bored and not wanted to play anymore. As far as I'm concerned, he thinks and acts like most players. I just think there is a problem if we are playing games only because we want to see that next item unlocked, that next level, that next achievement, and not because the gameplay itself is addicting. Does this mean I can make a crappy/mediocre gameplay game but put levels and achievements in it and people will still play it? Well, as expected, I haven't seen him play Alien Swarm anymore.

Bah, strayed from original point but, the issue with that system is you can BEAT it, as jackolantern said. If the only "catch" to the game was unlocking all those, the player can and will probably move on to a new game once he beats it. If the game had changing, exciting gameplay itself though, wouldn't that be better long-term?

I do believe it can be done.
very good example would be Diablo II
It's been out for over 10 years and still has ton players..
Blizzard resets the Ladder every year+ and players start over again.
I love that game because it was like a huge treasure hunt.

As for WOW, i quit for 4-6 months two to three times.
But then friends pull me back in or they release a new patch or ex-pack
But still it gets boring doing the same content after awhile.
One main thing i like about diablo was there maps was random.

I there was a way to make an MMO with alot random factors i'm sure that
keep players. Because it wont be same old tureen for a given instance.

jay

- Goals for completionists
- Milestones for achievers
- Trophies in the ePeen cabinet for the people who are playing to show off what they have to others

- They offer an alternate path of progression above and beyond the standard hack and slash.
- They allow players personal challenges for themselves within the existing content. While anyone *can* say to themselves "This time I'm going to try to beat that dungeon in 5 minutes" most people probably would not even think to do so. However, with the challenge presented before them and a big pop up audible and visual acknowledgement as a reward, people will challenge themselves to things they otherwise wouldn't do or wouldn't even think of doing.
- They offer entertaining diversions. By offering rewards for otherwise odd tasks, the tasks now become a source of amusement for many. For example, "Drop 300 meters... and live" is a classic example of that. Whereas oldschool MMO gamers probably do not need any prompting to go do goofy crap in the game world, the concept seems foreign to newer gamers who see any non-advancement diversion as "lost xpz". Most newer gamers, unless actively trying to find an exploit, probably wouldn't think to do random acts in the game world for self-amusement.


The guy that cried about taking damage would have cried about something else if achievements weren't there. The problem was that he wasn't a team player, not the achievement system. Really, since WOW's entire design is focused around personal goals and selfish behavior (thus the popularity of the game), I'd be more surprised that such behavior didn't occur on a more frequent basis.

For some players the flashing banner that says congratz you have done [insert goal here] makes you seem like you have done something or made a impact.

For others it's just a way of comparing you to your friends or getting the most achievements done.

It is also a list of things to do when your bored in a game.

~Matthew